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WING XXUN>@>!>!>!>!!!!!

Wang Chung? Everybody have fun tonight?

Actually, I spar with my brother, who works for a Krav Maga instructor in oakville. My brother teaches kids karate and 'got' a black belt from his Krav instructor so that he would have 'a' rating (the martial arts place my brother trains at is multi-disciplinary; they teach krav, kickboxing and karate; that I know about).

I keep making silly Karate-based footwork mistakes that I need a lot of time to train myself out of. My strikes are adequate, I have no ground game. I'm not going to pretend that I even know about ground game.

Krav is seriously one of the three things that my brother does that isn't shower/sleep/shit/piss/eat/drink.

The other two are to sell jewellery (although he's done with that, he's working at a le Chateau now; which is incredibley lols-worthy); and work out for Krav Maga. He hits the gym, or does krav maga every day of the week except two. He's also a watcher of Pride and UFC; which is what got him into Krav Maga in the first place. Now he uses his DVDs to study and learn.

Prak_Anima wrote:I've heard that a person trained in martial arts can, in the US, obtain a special insurance/license that, among other things, acts as a concealed carry license for certain weapons and, I guess, authorizes use of some amount of force or the like.

In a sense that's true: several U.S. states require certified training before they will issue concealed pistol permits, and every state has laws explaining how much force they consider reasonable.

(For instance, in Alabama, deadly physical force is presumed justified against suspects about to commit burglary, carjacking, kidnapping, forcible rape & sodomy, or felony assault.)

I have never heard of a state issuing archaic weapon or unarmed combat permits, which is what you were specifically asking about. My private opinion is you should be fine carrying a short-bladed folding knife. If you have to fight unarmed, only your lawyer needs to know what combat training you've had.

Judging__Eagle wrote:Long rambling post that has nothing to with anything anyone at all has said.

Wow JE. You made a long post that doesn't address concealed weapon permits, or how good martial arts are for defense.

You just bragged on behalf of your brother.

New rule. Whenever you make an entire post with no purpose besides stupid bragging about nothing, I'm going to tell you to go fuck yourself in private. If you ever wonder why I am suggesting that, it's because you keep masturbating on this board where other people can see, and it's fucking retarded.

Can I ask a question, Kae? Are you genuinely getting pissed that he went off on a tangent? If this is just something personal between you and Eagle, then hey, I'll just stand over here in the corner. Otherwise... I thought going off on utterly bizarre and obtuse tangents from the original thread is, like, half the fun of posting.

that about sounds like the kind of asinine thing that would spawn this shit.

Koumei wrote:Kaelik has personal beef with JE, yeah. If you ask JE, it's because Kae is butthurt over an old D&D game where JE overshadowed his character in every regard. If you ask Kae, I don't actually know, because of the two, only one elected to tell of this dark tale.

Umm, I DMed that game. JE's character was fucking retarded out of line with the power level I asked for. He started out nice, but kept asking for more and more shit. Back then I didn't have as firm of a grasp on game design, so I just said "Sure."

That said, I'm pretty sure that Kaelik's beef isn't because of that game. I'm pretty sure it's because JE masturbates in half the posts he makes (the other half tend to be pretty damn useful, so I have no personal beef with JE).

But yeah, the masturbatory posts get on my nerves too. I just don't bother to post telling JE to shut the fuck up most of the time because I'm a bit lazier and less angry than Kaelik.

Actually, the post was for Mean Liar. I have a tiny amount of experience with 'combat systems' (a fact that my brother was always correcting me about), so it's not like I'm talking about something I read on the internet. I was talking about stuff that I've done, and one person who I've talked to who actually does that sort of training.

Yesterday was the first day that I've ever spent any time actually looking up anything about Krav Maga, and, aside from finding out about a really sketchy guy in the UK that gives training that seems ridiculously short (3 days? Which made me go wtf? Since my brother's instructor was in california for an instructor's program that went for more than several days of pretty much non-stop training).

Trying to make a game simulation of krav maga, actual fighting or w/e is.... really dumb. You'll never get it right, it will always be wrong. Just use a stream-lined dice roll; and realize you're playing a game of fakeness. Maybe go for Naruto or Wuxia style martial arts.

You're not trying to replicate the real world. Like Koumei once told me "the real world is a festering scrotum, why the fuck would I want to see it?" (when discussing her love for CSI, and hate for L&O; while I hate CSI and love (most) L&O). Don't make a game for grappling. Just make a basic system for it.

Martial arts compared to Krav Maga

No, it's not a fucking martial art ****, it's a combat system.
So... it's like Jujitsu?
sigh... no, but we do some jujitsu based stuff
-A conversation me and my brother had about his krav maga training

"Martial arts" are.... not exactly always a good thing, something that I'm learning recently. Mostly b/c they're not street rated, and getting street rated is not meant to happen since you need to focus on aggression for a real fight.

Most martial arts places will not want to teach aggression, and there are many reasons for doing so. Our society seriously looks down on that, and then there's the 'other hand' where you need to do more than train strictly for aggression, you need to train on very controlled aggression. You can't be a seething ball of rage, that's actually really bad (apparently).

An example of this on/off needed to happen between calm and rage occured a couple weeks ago. My brother go sucker-punched a couple weeks ago by someone taller than him, and heavier than him, some kid that wouldn't turn his headphones down on a bus. My brother was lucky, and the kid didn't throw a solid punch. My brother then proceeded to drop his backpack and start striking and moving around the pretty much immobile person while throwing head strikes. My brother came out of it with just a shot to his head, but he admits that he was lucky. Something that he always tells me (probably b/c it's what he's taught) is that "every fight is 50/50; you can still lose even if you have training, and they don't". Now, in this situation, he was sort of ready for something to happen, however he was able to go from standing still in front of the guy, to standing behind the guy in a matter of seconds after delivering 3-4 strikes. That's the difference between being taught for aggression control, and simply calisthetics.

A person taking Tai Chi is physically fit, but they are not mentally fit to fight. That's really the key thing that krav maga is about. Most people can be physically ready to keep fighting, but mentally they give up. Krav Maga is meant to teach the user to be more mentally alert to danger, and to be able to react instintively to things (which takes a lot of repeated, potentially tedious or boring, training; something like 400 repetitions to get muscle memory, and 1000 repetitions before something becomes instinctive; that's per type of move, so that's a lot of practice; there's not "easy" way to get good at fighting).

Krav Maga isn't a 'martial art'. The people who teach it, and train in it, call it a 'combat system' (wtf that means exactly I dunno) and each instructor will have their own variations that they'll add, based on other martial art training, everything that the instructor knows will be borrowed from, and often they will have to look at other martial arts and borrow techniques that they want to use in their training.

The people that my brother trains with are cops looking to get better self-defense, other fighters of different levels of proffessionalism, some people either done, or in, the canadian army that want extra training (I've got a buddy of mine from high school who served a tour in Khandahar that started doing krav maga training a while ago, I don't keep in touch, so I don't know if he's still doing it or not).

I think that's what sets it apart from martial arts. It's that it never pretends to be a martial art, but is fine being a mish-mash of several others, and only using the easiest to train, safest to use, and most dangerous to get affected by abilities that an instructor knows. Most krav maga instructors will know several other martial arts as well, and will probably even do classes for them, but Krav is meant to blend them together.

It's not about 'sport', it's about instinctively reacting with maximum violence so that you don't die immediately. Note, I never said it was the be all, and end all. Someone that gets lucky with a punch, kick, knife, or simply has a gun and stands 3 or more feet away from can easily take down someone with years of krav maga training. There are no 'guarantees', there's just training, and luck. You can't be lucky all of the time, so training probably fills in the gaps.

At the minimum, decent Krav Maga training/sparring will have outside trainng. You are thrown against and have to be deal with being pinned against wooden, and chain-link fences, cinderblock and brick walls. You will have to spar against multiple opponents, grapple and fight on gravel, on asphalt. You will have to spar with people that use dummy rubber handguns *, with dummy knives who are not going to hold back. The list keeps going on. I have no idea what the 'best' krav training will be like. Probably worse/more intense than that. It would probably involve gun training, and teach the user to go for their fucking gun when attacked. That's really the 'ideal' situation for krav maga training. You go for your handgun, and shoot your opponent. Seriously. For all the physical training in the world, a firearm is still your best bet at stopping/killing someone intent on attacking you.

My brother comes back scraped, cut, scratched, and bruised; he is always sweated through one shirt completely, and has nearly completely soaked an other one in sweat. He's had ligaments torn in his knee because he misjudged something in a grapple, and had to take a year and a half off of real ground work to let it heal (instead he worked out and just did sparring mitts/striking). Krav Maga is not fun training (I won't do it myself, it's good to spar with my brother, and practice striking, and get isntruction and training that rubs off of him, but it's really not my thing). A good place will get you ready for 'outside'. A bad place will practice strictly indoors.

*:Wielded a specific way b/c the disarm methods focus on breaking the other person's finger; they also are useless if the person uses a gun correctly, as in, stands further than 2 feet away from you.

Concealed Carry Licenses

What Occifer?

Unless it's a firearm, that you have trained a lot with, and you are safe to carry it, it's probably never a good idea to carry a weapon.

It will only give you a false sense of confidence. Also, everything is a fucking weapon.

If it's a tool it's a weapon. Baseball cap? Weapon, you've got a solid brim, and you can swing the cap at a person's face, distracting them for a half second before you throw a punch or a kick. Cup of coffee? Uh, what do you think? It's a weapon, you throw it at someone, and it will not make their day. A pen or pencil? Sure it might snap and cut your fingers, but you can fuck up someone up with it. Keys? They're hard, thin, and metal so they won't snap. They're a force multiplier. Weapons. You can use a backpack, a bottle of water, a ruler, anything as an improvised weapon.

It's probably better to train for alertness to danger, alertness to your surroundings, practice fighting with small/light dummy/rubber weapons, and just not carry a real weapon on you.

Now, I'm a hypocrite and carry a 4" folding/locking knife, but I also go camping, and carry it with me then. It's on a belt sheath, along with my cell phone, swiss army and maglight. I can cover them all with a t-shirt or sweater; which attracts less attention in public.

If a police officer asks to look at it, I have no problem slowly taking it out, and opening it carefully with two hands. I'm not going to do what I usually do when I draw/open it, which is to pull it out of the blade by the sheath, and snap my wrist forward so that the handle's weight makes the blade unfold and lock open (mostly b/c it looks badass when it happens, and partly b/c it's a neat little muscle memory trick I've taught myself). Because that would look dangerous, and thus be unwise.

========

Ubernoob, that game went sideways for a bunch of reasons. Partly because everyone else was not posting where/how their characters were being built, so I had no idea on the average power level of the other characters. Partly because the core of the character concept was removed, and then I had to dumpster dive for stuff to replace it (and as a result of said dumpster diving found lots of other things to replace things that I had otherwise been happy with). Partly because I had never played a game above lvl 7, and all I could think about was "shit, this is going to require a whole new level of optimizing from me, I better get to work" when I was making a level 14 character. Partly because I was optimizing/building a friend's character at the same time (and thus was doing research for two melee characters, meaning even more dumpster diving than usual was done); and partly because the game was a "CO challenge" and other characters were stuff like persistent divine metamagiced spell casters; which are at the near top of the CO game, and I was playing a non-caster, so I wanted to be able to not be a drain on the party in any way shape or form.

Doing the same with "expected numbers" and "caps" is probably a better way to go.

Also, that fighter of mine only dealt with one monster ever, as soon as two water elemental showed up at once, it would probably be lights out. I'm sure that for the second encounter you would have done something entirely different with the monsters. Giving them massive Con, and much less HD, or something. I never said that the character was able to dominate the game, in fact, a lot of things would simply TKO him.

Say, Grapple; I very seldom make good grapplers; it's nice to have, but it's something I tend to dump in builds. Or anything else Str-based, I tend to dump str in most of my characters, mostly b/c it's boring for me to have maxed str.

The reason that I'm using that character again is that I still want to find it's limitations. A fact that Kaelik seems to completly miss, because he's Kaelik, and not say... Random or Phone or Frank or K. He's not able to do anything more than gripe. He's got no imagination, he's got no great ideas, nor does he really add new ideas. At the very least PhoneLobster has not only ideas, but whole systems that solve shit that he hates. He's able to point out things that are wrong and why they are wrong, but better still, he can suggest what should be done to fix them. No one else may use Phone's ideas, but they are solid and balanced systems that do what Phone wants. Kaelik fails at doing that. Which is annoying, b/c we always need more contributions in terms of ideas here. Once Kaelik breaks past his barriers, I hope to see some good stuff from him. He's angry, which means that he's thinking about something. I just want to see what's in his skull and have him write it down.

Also, right now, he can't find the inherent flaws in the character, so his comments are pretty much useless to me. I don't learn anything new, or get a new insight on that build. There are builds that have Wish as a spell-like ability, and even those have limitations to what they can do. There are builds that are quad-threats, and those have limitations. They're not my builds though, so I don't really care to find all the holes and flaws in them. I do want to know and find the flaws in the build that I spent time on, because nothing is perfect. Something might be really good, but never perfect.

Kaelik might be smart, and clever, but he's not actually wise enough to realize why I want to discussing or wanting to use that character. Nor is he able to figure out what that character's weaknesses or limitations are. I know that it's 'powerful', but I know that something will show up, and make it not work, and I want to know what it will be. I expect to be surprised, and deflated, when it happens; but I'll have found the build's weaknesses.

Any idea of a 'fued' between us is laughable. I only fued with people that have actually intentionally harmed me or slandered my character; or done so to those I care about. Kaelik is just ragging on a build that I made that he doesn't like; he's ragging on an idea, which is good. Ideas are meant to be chewed over. People are not.

Right now, I'm just kicking Kaelik, trying to provoke him into writing something more. He's not. Yet. Hopefully he will come around. You too Ubernoob, you've got to post more ideas. We needs dozens of posted ideas before we get any good ones. That's seriously why I post whatever comes into my head. Something eventually gels, and sticks, and works.

JE, do I even need to point out that you just masturbated about three subjects simultaneously? Stop doing that.

@Sock, Koumei, Prak:

If you ask JE anything, you will get an answer about how great he is and how much other people suck. That's not surprising, that's what JE is.

However, JE mentioned that character plenty of times since that game with me generally not caring, but it got pretty annoying when he started bringing it up as good thing about Tome Fighters in every thread, even ones not about Tome Fighters.

I do have a 'personal beef' with JE, because he is a genuinely retarded person who constantly brags about how awesome he is instead of doing something meaningful.

And now for a very 'brief' commentary on JE's stupid Kaelik bash:

"partly because the game was a "CO challenge" and other characters were stuff like persistent divine metamagiced spell casters"

Except you know, Persist Metamagic was not allowed because it was too broken. You assface. Try reading.

"Nor is he able to figure out what that character's weaknesses or limitations are."

I can see exactly what his limitations are. I just don't care. Yes he is supremely limited in that his touch AC doesn't break the RNG like his saves, so someone could easily fire bullshit metamagic rays from outside foil range and kill him. Except that all sources of bullshit metamagic rays were banned.

And yes, he can only beat two to six CR 20 monsters in melee at once, since he has longer reach than Tall Colossal creatures, does more damage than any CR 20, has higher AC, has better AB, and gets many many more attacks.

Yes he couldn't solo them in the sense that other people had to take part in the fight, because when other people actually contribute to a fight at all, you consider that 'lights out' since you think you should be th only person who matters.

I can see his limitations just fine. (You can't since you forgot that you had FoM, rendering Grapple useless.) I just don't care. My goal is not to make a fucking character that is invulnerable to everything, my goal is to make the game fun for everyone, so when your stupid ass character is equal to Barbarian+Skills+Longer Reach+ Con damage on all attacks+more damage+foil, that's a fucking problem. Because that ruins the game I spend my energy towards, the one where everyone matters.

I understand this is fundamentally opposed to the game you want to play "JE does everything and brags about how awesome he is while other people watch." I also think you are a fundamentally terrible person for wanting to play that game.

That's why all the rules and classes I make are never going to make you happy. Because when I make the Ghoul or Dragon class, my goal is not to make a class that never does anything JE can't do, or to make a class JE can dip to be better than everyone, it is to make a class that does several unique things, and doesn't do better than everyone else.

"A fact that Kaelik seems to completly miss, because he's Kaelik, and not say... Random or Phone or Frank or K. He's not able to do anything more than gripe. He's got no imagination, he's got no great ideas, nor does he really add new ideas."

Waaah! Kaelik is so dumb! I hate him! He never makes rules for things I like, so therefore he sucks! I'm just going to say that he never adds new ideas because I'm a bitch!

JE, the only creative, imaginative, great, new idea you've ever had is to make a Tome Fighter that breaks the RNG, and makes things cry. And you even suck at that, because I did the same damn thing with Tome Fighter before you ever made that character and I didn't have to dip into community material to do it.

Get back to me when you've contributed to anything at all on this entire forum that anyone besides you cares about.

I know, it will never happen, and you will never know if it happens, because you are incapable of seeing that other people are not you, and therefore do not have the goal of JE being better than them. But in the mean time, shut the hell up about how I don't contribute to what you like best, you being awesome, when you have literally never contributed anything to anyone ever.

That character didn't deal any meaningful damage btw. The only reason he could hurt things was con damage. FoM doesn't mean the character can grapple things, it's just immunity to grapples by others; which is something different. I don't really consider outside buffs part of that character's 'powers', doing so is disingenous.

The Barbarian in that group did something like 2-3x my fighter's damage, bypassed DR, and had some ludicrous other protections.

Also, I can't say that I can recall a single thing that you've written up for a game. CeilingCat has seriously written more material than you; and they haven't written anything in the last two+ years since their "Warrior of Darkness" and "Warlock".

If you wrote stuff like TarkisFlux's Skills rewrite, Maxus's Crafting re-writes, Iaimeki's Skill Feats and Pally, Koumei's.... greatly varied stuff (I'm currently running two different DC! games, and the stuff for the PCs is awesome at both tiers), Phone's Big Fat Squares (an awesome system for non-mapped fighting; I can't use it b/c I often have to juggle 7 people that split off and have different speeds; so I stick with a grid since it's less memory-load) it would be different.

You seriously haven't even written a class, feat, or even a rules tweak that I've been able to recall. That's what I'm talking about. It's not that I don't like what material you've written (like say... the sometimes submitted classes that don't work, that are written by very new members), or that I can't use your material (most of Phone's stuff, but I've found that all of his ideas are great food for thought; he's angry and gives solutions).

It's that I haven't seen you actually write anything. There's literally a dozen people here who aren't Frank or K that have written really good material that I've used in my games and improved my games.

Things that I've written that people besides me cared about. Hmm. That's a tough one. I can't think of a single one. I guess I haven't written anything here that people other than me care about. Congratulations, you won an argument on the internet against a retard.

I've seen Kaelik write two full classes in the past month:
1) A homebrew ghoul class for somebody that wanted to play a ghoul in his game (I think I helped with naming a few abilities)
2) A revised dragon class like fucking yesterday in IMOI.

About the character: We stopped the encounter because the enemies couldn't actually do anything to any one in the party as long as you were alive and they couldn't get to you to attack either. I had to sack like 2 CR 21 creatures to let one charge you and make a single attack. The encounter was a joke because of your character being so far off the expected range. I don't hold it against you because I've gotten overzealous and done the same thing plenty of times, but the character was out of line.


But yeah, look around JE.

Judging__Eagle wrote:If you wrote stuff like TarkisFlux's Skills rewrite, Maxus's Crafting re-writes, Iaimeki's Skill Feats and Pally, Koumei's.... greatly varied stuff (I'm currently running two different DC! games, and the stuff for the PCs is awesome at both tiers), Phone's Big Fat Squares (an awesome system for non-mapped fighting; I can't use it b/c I often have to juggle 7 people that split off and have different speeds; so I stick with a grid since it's less memory-load) it would be different.

You know what I don't fucking see in that list? Judging Eagle's X.

You haven't written anything either. WTF is your problem? No, I mostly don't write a lot of homebrew shit. I mostly don't post what I do write because it's for my games and usually not for other peoples.

I do however go into "skills" threads and present design criteria or advice. I do that every now and then. But mostly, I don't write things.

My total contributions on any given day are still greater than your entire lifespan. You seriously don't even give advice, In a discussion about houserules I gave all my houserules and explained why I use them. I even provided a critique of Tome Fighter, and what sort of things need to be changed.

You know what you did? You bragged about a character and how awesome he is for like eight posts.

That's it. That's the sum total of your contribution to the Houserules thread.

Believe it or not, there is no goddam contract that I signed where the Gaming Den pays me based on complete output. I can write or not write whatever I damn want, and the fact that you think you can bitch about how I don't write a lot of rules, and therefore am some sort of idiot is beyond a joke, since you have never contributed anything worth reading to the gaming den in your entire life.

And I haven't wrote shit in almost a decade. Yay me!

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:And I haven't wrote shit in almost a decade. Yay me!

Yeah, the stuff I've written is all 3.0, and I never cared enough to upgrade, so me posting my creations is not anything anyone would give a damn about.

Can we get this damned thing locked now? It was a stupid post in the first place, and it's just going to serve as a flamesground for Kaelik and JE...

Prak_Anima wrote:Can we get this damned thing locked now? It was a stupid post in the first place, and it's just going to serve as a flamesground for Kaelik and JE...

I don't see any need to lock it. But I do agree, it was a stupid post that exemplified the stupidity of the OP.

I think Phone Lobster summed it up best as the OP: "...oh yeah, that's just great. Not just random paranoid guy with knives, guy who aspires to be a random paranoid guy with knives and a license to kill like he saw on James Bond that time."

I miss the '70s. Quaalude pills were legally available for a time.

--

Also to the point of switchblades being used in martial arts -- aside from this Krav Maga (which sounded at first like a Russian gun or gymnast to me), most forms of military training focus on the short knife/dagger. Hell, switchblades come originally from bayonettes.

Also on a lesser issue of legality. How legal are mace, pepper spray or low voltage tasers? I ask this because I want to defend the innocent!

"It varies by the state," he says, pretending it was a serious question. "I can try and find out for you if you post which state you're asking about."

Sir_Neil wrote:"It varies by the state," he says, pretending it was a serious question. "I can try and find out for you if you post which state you're asking about."

It was somewhat serious. But aside from state law dictating it, is it along the lines of a crime to carry it in some states and legal to use on a defender in some?

My wife used to carry pepper spray fora while. I've been tasered a time or two while on night security at a college. I took it like a chump and then wrote the guy up instead of calling the cops. effin' fratboys.

EDIT: for the sake of your polite reply, Texas, California, and Jersey. I think that works out nicely for three sides.

Now, in this situation, he was sort of ready for something to happen, however he was able to go from standing still in front of the guy, to standing behind the guy in a matter of seconds after delivering 3-4 strikes. That's the difference between being taught for aggression control, and simply calisthetics.

Have fun bailing your brother out on the assault charges he is going to provoke real soon now if he keeps living like that.

Josh_Kablack wrote: Have fun bailing your brother out on the assault charges he is going to provoke real soon now if he keeps living like that.

Wat, you cannot just go around provoking people on public transportation in the hopes of beating them up with your martial arts* training? You would deny a man from getting in all his sparing time? Fascist!


* "combat system" being nothing more than a pretentious way to say "martial art," apparently

[edit: typoe]

Josh, why do you hate America?

A_Cynic wrote:It was somewhat serious.

Oh, okay. The "defend the innocent" line threw me.

But aside from state law dictating it, is it along the lines of a crime to carry it in some states and legal to use on a defender in some?

I'm not sure what you mean by use on a defender.

Here are some relevant laws:
California: (Mace defined in 12401, stun gun in 12650)
Jersey: is a little bitch. I can't find the weapon laws, but here's the self-defense law.
Texas

TL:DR Stun guns and pepper spray appear to be legal for civilians to carry in California and Texas, and to use in self-defense. If you use them in an assault, however, your ass is done.

Edit: WTF? Copy and paste this motherfucker.
http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om ... swithhits=
on&hitsperheading=on&infobase=statutes.nfo&record={1689}&softpage=Doc_Frame_PG42]